irc.amigaworld.net #iksnet 2006-09-23 Pianeta Amiga 2006 ***New PPC440EP Hardware "Samantha"*** [18:23:19] «Thema» Orgin ändert das Thema auf "Session with Massimo and AndreaV, send your questions to afxgroup. Write /msg afxgroup your-question". [18:23:25] Hello people! [18:23:32] Samantha is beautiful [18:25:53] How much is the Samantha going to retail for? [18:26:51] the first batch, which will be in limited quantities, for developers, should retail for around 370-399 euros, plus local taxes [18:27:03] for the basic version [18:27:33] the card can be scaled to different configurations, depending on the demand [18:27:42] Who will port OS4 to Samantha? Will Hyperion do it or will you port it yourself (incl. drivers for say USB2 etc). Has there been some work done yet ? How long would that take? [18:28:14] I'm taking care of uboot (my personal curse) [18:28:40] most peripherals are already supported by OS4 (SATA, Radeon, Audio...) [18:29:08] USB is both OHCI and EHCI [18:29:14] OS4 has drivers for OHCI [18:29:29] the rest is upto Hyperion [18:29:36] I dont understand what you mean by "scaled to different configurations".. can you elaborate? [18:30:31] depending on demand, different CPUs and graphics chip, amount of memory and connectors can be added or removed [18:30:52] it's a system developed in a modular way [18:32:34] the moderator will be back soon [18:35:26] :would it be possible to run MOS on Samantha? [18:37:04] about MOS: [18:37:43] the system is open to anyone who is willing to give support [18:38:14] is it possibile to port the libdha? [18:38:58] libdha: sure, time permitting [18:39:59] Andrea: Most PPC Linux-distros (if not all?) are made for either Mac or Pegasos which means OpenFirmware. How hard will it be for the distributions to support your Uboot? [18:41:41] "our" UBoot is nothing different than the mainstream uboot [18:42:06] which, lately, has added support for a flatted of-tree structure [18:42:31] as such, UBoot is rather well supported by Linux, [18:42:36] but it must be a recent version [18:42:40] Who do you consider to be a "developer"? What about us bedroom coder types? [18:43:33] a bedroom code is a developer in every sense [18:43:57] as soon as he develops seriously and produces real stuff [18:43:58] :having OS4 already drivers for the Silicon Image Serial Ata chipset, radeon chipset, what's missing for it to be fully supported(besides HAL)? [18:44:54] what is still to be done (driver-wise): [18:45:31] ethernet, serial, and the FPGA is we decide to support it under OS4 [18:45:58] which markets other amiga do you hope to introduce this board to? [18:46:39] embedded markets where OS4 and Linux can be used [18:46:55] pretty much everywhere where we can place it [18:47:19] the card has been developed mainly for industrial customers [18:47:08] does porting sdl stuff make me a developer? :D [18:47:35] spotUP: yes, why not! [18:47:42] :are there any future plans for a hi end samantha with a high end G4 processor ? [18:48:21] no, but we're working on the "Moana" project that is geared towards the desktop market [18:48:46] many things must be cleared though, before this other project can take off [18:48:53] is there a Samantha case (maybe with the Amiga name embossed upon it) in the plans? [18:49:22] it's planned, but yet completely defined. Priorities are elsewhere now [18:49:35] :Would you like to see AROS running on it? [18:49:59] yes, why not, same as MOS [18:50:44] btw: national italian television (RAI) showed up and took some interviews of the men behind Samantha [18:51:17] sorry guys but we must leave, [18:51:22] the fair ground is closing [18:51:35] and shutting down power. :-[ [18:52:04] if you want, you can come back tomorrow, in the morning same channel. Nothing is planned, [18:52:12] but hop in and check if we're around [18:52:22] we'll be glad to answer more questions time permitting [18:52:26] byeee! ***AmigaOS4*** [17:26:20] Welcome brothers to the IRC chat session, thank you for coming (AndreaV speaking) [17:27:08] We might see Massimo too, if he mastered the secrets of IRC. ;-) [17:28:47] ok, let's start with the questions [17:28:53] question for Thomas: Are you guys working on SMP capability for OS4? Or will that not be possible until a dual cpu board is out? (sounds like a chicken and egg situation) [17:30:02] There are plans for SMP, but these are for the time after OS 4.0 [17:30:34] Once 4.0 is finished, what are the plans for 4.1 and beyond? [17:31:37] Well, for 4.1, we plan a lot of improvements and even replacements for current components. For example, there's likely to be a completely new graphics system, Workbench, etc... and of course, we want to add functionality to the other components... [17:32:05] <_PAB_> As we already read, AmigaOS was ported to PowerPC 440 and the Samantha runs UBoot 1.4.4 - does that mean, that AmigaOS4 development for that board has already / can now / will be started ? [17:32:07] For example, The next big thing on the plate for Exec (in 4.1) is improvements in the scheduler (currently, most improvments are in the memory management area) [17:33:13] AmigaOS was ported for the 405, not the 440. But the equation 440 + UBoot = OS4 doesn't hold. The interaction between the firmware and the system is very small... the biggest issue is and remains drivers for the onboard hardware. [17:33:34] So yes, porting can be done now, but it doesn't mean it works automatically... [17:34:22] do you know if MUI4 is going to be ported to OS4? [17:34:32] I don't know, really.. sorry [17:34:39] Oh wait [17:34:44] Yes, it is [17:35:27] What is the current situation with AmigaOS 4.0 and hardware problems? [17:35:54] I don't understand the question, really... what hardware problems are you referring to ? [17:36:24] lack of it [17:37:06] Oh... well, like I said last week, there are several projects running, but as usual, we do not make press releases for other companies. You will have to wait for them to come out with information themselves... sorry [17:38:03] A question for Massimo Tantignone: are you planning any further improvements over Intuition? [17:38:26] Yes :) [17:38:53] Another question for Massimo Tantignone: last week you mentioned there is a surpise coming up in intuition, can you comment on that surprise ? [17:40:14] Actually, it was not me who said that ;) I think he referred to the new icon.library features (have they been disclosed at the show yet?). [17:40:44] I think it was disclosed, yes [17:40:56] yes, they are on show at Pianeta Amiga :-) [17:41:30] so you can talk about it [17:41:31] That doesn't mean there can't be other surprises in the future, of course. [17:41:42] Good to know :) [17:41:56] What is your opinion on this new SAM board and the possibilities with OS4 running on it? [17:42:59] If that's addressed at me: I like it, it's a nice entry-level hardware especially since it can run with passive cooling... [17:43:33] what's been updated in aos4 since upd4? what's new? [17:43:39] Regarding OS4, I can't say anything... I don't know what the plans are... From a technical side, it's no problem [17:44:19] I don't think it's possible to list everything that changed since update 4. There's been a whole lot of bugfixing going on, and we've used the time to optimize some parts of the system [17:44:37] The new memory system, for example, uses memory pools that are up to 20 times faster than with the old system [17:45:37] The additional time we had made it possible to re-think and re-work a lot of stuff [17:45:36] Q: will we see an OS4 port of Rockstar's GTA series some day? :-P If not, what other games may be ported over that can be disclosed atm? [17:46:00] Hyperion has currently no new game ports in the pipeline, at least nothing I am aware of. [17:46:20] Alot has been commented on about Snap and Mesa for OS4. Any news? [17:47:21] Has it ? Regarding Mesa, we decided to put that on hold. The basic issue is that we need a graphics system that allows the 3d driver a bit more control, for example, about the graphics memory. This is difficult to do with the current system. [17:47:51] I can't really comment too much about this, since I'm not involved in either SNAP nor Mesa at the moment [17:48:09] Can you atleast say if porting of OS4 has started with any of these projects? No need to mention any company names here... [17:48:53] SNAP has been ported nearlly fully, to the best of my knowledge. Mesa was worked on at one point, but as I said, I'm not fully aware of it's current status [17:51:44] When will you release and updated SDK ? [17:52:22] A new SDK has been prepared just yesterday, but as usual, we will test it first... I would say two weeks [17:53:01] What is the state of OS4 for classic machines? [17:55:07] Basically the same as for AmigaOne. The basic difference is the driver support. Since some of the hardware expansions for Classic machines are, let's say, inventive, the support is diffuclut. Plus, most drivers are unfortunately not written correctly (meaning they don't take memory into account that is not mapped to the same physical address). This makes some of the original drivers useless,... [17:55:09] ...even though they work under emulation. In addition, the different cache line size of 68k and PPC makes it difficult to use old drivers. [17:55:49] Will there be an updated warp3d release? [17:56:46] There will be an updated Radeon driver, fixing the known bugs. Don't ask for an ETA, though [17:57:01] The presence on Samantha of a LatticeXP FPGA gives great expansion chances. What is your opinion about such possibilities and can you say something about AmigaOS4 support? [17:58:03] I haven't looked into this yet. Currently, my time doesn't allow me to look at potential future projects... [17:58:43] would it be possible to extend the functionality of grimreaper / compatibilty prefs so if a application crashes / takes down os4 it can be automatically blacklisted. [17:59:34] That would be possible, yes... I'll forward that to the people involved... [17:59:47] will the updated radeon driver fix the 8500 / 9100 problems ? These work under morphos now. [18:00:25] Not that I know of. I'm not involved in the Radeon driver, so I can't comment... [18:01:06] Any additional kernel features planned for 4.0 beyond the memory system upgrade? [18:01:39] For OS 4.0, no. The new memory system will be the "final" new feature. [18:01:56] how about update #5.....to tide us over and test some of the newer additions/refinements or at least an updated uboot [18:02:43] I can't decide on that, you will have to ask the Hyperion management... right now, to the best of my knowledge, no further update is planned [18:03:20] Question: Roughly how much of your working weeks is spent on OS4, do you have to put a lot of time in to other Hyperion projects [18:04:02] Right now, we are working full time on OS4. Hans-Jörg and me are currently not working on other Hyperion projects [18:04:17] Q: will we see an OS4 port of Rockstar's GTA series some day? :-P If not, what other games may be ported over that can be disclosed atm? [18:04:26] * EntilZha coughs [18:04:45] Ask Rockstar games ;) [18:05:04] <_bladez_> will amigaos get an auto software update feature ala mac os x via software update and linux via it's various package managers. [18:06:26] We currently use Amiupdate for updating beta versions. In theory, this could be used to update the system after release, too... if such a thing is planned, I don't know... again, that is for the Hyperion management and the AmiUpdate author to decide [18:06:51] I would like to see AmiUpdate in the final OS4, to be honest... it's damn useful [18:06:59] has there been any improvements to uboot? [18:07:47] There was some experiemntal fix for the PCI problem on the MicroA1. Don't ask me if it's ready for release though [18:09:03] Whilst I appreciate it's a rather hypothetical question at the moment as no single-core hardware is available for AmigaOS at present, how feasible would it be to get the Amiga kernel running SMP (either multicore or multiprocessor) [18:11:33] The problem with multiple cores/CPUs with the current system is the semantic of Forbid/Permit. The original system, some system components, and a lot of software use it as a cheap single-threading mechanism... Of course, this doesn't translate to multiple cores, since then, a Forbid would have to lock out all other cores from running if that semantic would have to be retained. This is clearly... [18:11:34] ...not a desireable solution. We've given this problem some thought, but we are not planning this for 4.0, so it's rather hypothetical right now. [18:11:50] So we're posponing that for 4.1 and beyond [18:11:59] Andreas Loong, here at the fair, showed the "Panda" (ud-tech) board, and said it'll be sent to you soon. What can you tell us about it ? [18:12:39] Ask me again when I have it ;) [18:12:55] Question: Roughly how much of your working weeks is spent on OS4, do you have to put a lot of time in to other Hyperion projects [18:13:29] See above, already ansered that [18:13:45] Has OS4 porting started on any of the new hardware without commenting on any specific company names [18:14:40] No comment. Sorry, see above... [18:14:48] A question to Massimo:do you plan to add mouse wheel support in other Reaction classes? [18:16:34] Where it is feasible and useful, yes. There will probably be some further support in Intuition allowing to do that in a simpler way. [18:16:47] Might be a too philosophical question, but how do you personally think that OS4 has turned out so far? Has OS4 so far turned out the way you wanted to see it originally and is it going in that direction? [18:17:18] Yes. In some ways, it's turned out to be even better than we originally thought. [18:17:50] Most of all, it was absolutely great working with this team. [18:18:24] Finally lack of hardware will not be an issue within a few months. Do you think that, that premise given, we can see a final version of AmigaOS4 simoultaneously with the starting of Samantha (or other board) mass production? [18:19:56] The thing to happen for OS4 to be released is _availability_ of hardware, that is, you should be able to actually order a machine with OS4 in a shop. As such, the final version depends on the mass production of hardware. [18:20:21] So, it's not the availability of prototypes... they are available right now... [18:20:28] You need to be able to buy them [18:20:41] (them = hardware capable of running OS4) [18:21:16] We thank Thomas for participating to the chat [18:21:22] he has to leave but [18:21:37] Massimo and AndreaV will be here answering some more questions [18:22:16] please start asking questions to them [18:22:28] Ok, I'm off then. Thanks for the interest [18:23:35] (for Massimo) How much advantage does the current graphical system takes of the GPUs? Even a rough estimate will do. [18:25:43] It depends on the driver, I guess. I'm not really an expert of the low-level parts of the graphic system, but I think 2D is rather well covered. [18:26:25] However, graphics.library and rtg.library don't take much advantage of the 3D capabilities of the graphic card at the moment. [18:36:37] (for Massimo) Can you elaborate on the new icon.libray? [18:39:30] It does now support truecolor icons natively, and also external loader/saver modules for third-party icon formats. It can perform icon scaling (not used by the Workbench yet) and it has some further customization capabilities. [18:38:51] :(for Massimo) Are there plans for moving the menu system into its own window so it don't lock the hole screen when visible? [18:40:40] AC: this feature is already available in Update 4, if I'm not mistaken. Set your menus to "non blocking".